John Blomster: Welcome to 红桃视频, I'm John Blomster, and today we're speaking with KJ Williams, founder of Radical Insightful Solutions to Create Equity, also known as RISE with KJ. Based in King County. RISE provides consultation to organizations, groups and individuals across industries seeking to improve cultures of diversity, equity and inclusiveness. KJ is visiting the law school today as part of her three-part series, focusing on bias and microaggressions in the practice of law, which is sponsored by 红桃视频鈥檚 Dean's Advisory Committee on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. And we're thrilled that she's able to join us today.
So KJ, thank you very much for taking the time.
KJ Williams: Thank you for having me.
Blomster: So first off, can you tell us a little bit about RISE and what inspired you to found the organization?
Williams: RISE came about as a result of my employment with the Washington State Bar Association, which I just ended my tenure there after about nine years, almost nine years, but within the last two years, the drawl for consultation or the call for consultation had increased. And I recognized a need. So, I was actually responding to a need. And because my position was so specific to the legal profession and providing consultation within the legal profession, I needed another vehicle because I was being contacted by government entities, nonprofit organizations, for profit organizations, and I couldn't do that within the confines of my position at the bar association. So RISE was born. It was also the opportunity to birth something that was really natural and authentic for me, fundamentally means exploring yourself in ways that you haven't before, so that you can find unique solutions that work for you. But that impact broadly your sphere of influence.
Blomster: Before we get into the subject in the legal field, I'd like to just go over certain terms that we, you know, will be speaking about. So how do you define implicit bias and then what constitutes a micro aggression?
Williams: Implicit bias are those attitudes or stereotypes that we might engage in, whether consciously or unconsciously, and we all have implicit bias. This is a very human experience. Implicit bias is something that exists as a function of the brain to keep us safe, and to also provide guidance and direction so we can have positive biases or we can have negative biases. The term microaggressions was first coined in the late 60s, early 70s by Chester Pierce who is an African-American Harvard psychologist, and so, a psychiatrist, and he coined that term at a time when our country was really focused on civil rights, the civil rights of women, the civil rights of people of color, specifically African Americans. And so when he coined that term, his definition really focuses on sexism and racism, then you fast forward about 35, 37 years later, and we have a reemergence of the term. And that's by Dr. Derald W. Sue. And Dr. Sue does this fabulous job of recognizing that all marginalized populations experience some form and level of oppression, and so then are navigating microaggressions on a daily basis. And so he expands that and gives us the opportunity to recognize that no matter who you are, you can experience a microaggression.
Now, I do want to say that in between that time that 37 or so years, although we don't see that term emerging again, what we do know is that when you do an analysis of the studies, the research and the literature at that time, they're just using different language to still explain the same experiences that women and people of color and other groups of marginalized populations were experiencing. So even though we don't see the term, the experience itself did not change. And I point that out because of the backlash that has come with the reemergence of the term microaggressions, as though this is something new, and it's made up and it's just a new thing for people of color and other groups to use.
Blomster: So, this is this is a really difficult subject to talk about, I would imagine in your diverse experience, whether it's people who have been the victim of microaggressions or those who have been perpetrators, whether willingly or unknowingly. So, when you have a subject like this, it can be very difficult to talk about, where do you begin? How do you start to break down barriers with people and where does that conversation start?
Williams: Well, I think if we're talking about an attorney-client relationship, then there are factors that have to be taken into account, right? So, the positionality of the attorney is one of power. And so if we're talking about a client who actually has engaged in some type of microaggressive or bias behavior, then the attorney has the positional power to feel comfortable interrupting that client. But when you turn the coin over, we know that that positionality creates a barrier to the average client if the attorney engages themselves in microaggressive or bias behavior. And so a recommendation that I have, generally when I'm talking to people, and let's just say we're talking to the average citizen is you have to think about who you are and the outcome that you want, what you can live with. There's always a cost-benefit analysis that goes into whether or not you should interrupt, should you respond, should you react? Is this something that you want to deal with today, right? Like what kind of day did you have and are you invested in continuing this relationship?
So there are a number of factors that need to be considered when you are trying to determine if you're going to interrupt or not.
Blomster: Why is this such an important discussion to have in regard to the practice of law and the legal field specifically?
Williams: So, specific to the legal profession, I think it's extremely important that we understand not just what a microaggression is, but that we actually hold space and awareness for recognizing that microaggressions are happening on a daily basis. They're happening regularly for people with marginalized identities. And when you think about those who need to access the legal profession, they are accessing the legal profession because they need representation. When we look at the demographics of the legal profession, we know that it is dominated by white males. And so when you think about the historical context of our country, and who has privilege, who has affluence, who has power, recognizing that that system of power is clearly set up within the context of the legal profession.
So, myself as a person of color coming into, let's just say, a client interview, and I'm attending as a client. Automatically, I've been socialized to believe that this attorney knows everything, right? This attorney in some way it's going to fix it, they're going to help me save whatever it is that I'm trying to save. And so there's this automatic deference to the power that exists just in the title attorney. Now you overlay that or you intersect that with the identity of the attorney and the identity of me, I walk into the office, and if I'm dressed as I'm normally dressed with a button down and I've got, you know, a blazer on and you know, my shoes look good. My hair is in whatever state that it might be, but I come in and I look professional, right? So, my reception is going to be very different than let's say, a friend of mine who may come in and be in jeans. And maybe their jacket is not that clean and maybe their hair is a little unkempt.
Now the problem is that we all hold biases. But often we're not conscious of the biases we hold until we're actually engaged with a representation of that bias. And so if you were the attorney and you were raised in a culture, whether that culture being your home or your neighborhood that was pretty homogenous, and white, there is a socialization that you've gone through as well. And that socialization comes with stereotypes. And it comes with narratives right about people who look like me, people who act like me. And so now I'm sitting in front of you. All of those stereotypes, all of those biases can be activated in you, even if you choose not to consciously act them out, you may still act them out unconsciously, right? Because the brain reacts very quickly. And we have this automatic response that's been strengthened over time. Okay?
And so as you act out, I have to make a decision as a person, as a person of color, as a woman, whether or not I want to engage, because again, that power differential is real. And I have a need, and you are the person with the power, right? And so I need you to access, I need to connect with you so that I can access the resources necessary to meet my need. And if you as the gatekeeper, if you as the person with positional power, if you then decide to engage in making comments. Let's say you make a comment to me like, 鈥淲ow, I am really surprised how well you're able to articulate yourself, and your hair is really nice. How long does it take to do that? Is it okay to touch it?鈥 I've had this happen I've had, I've been in stores where women have actually reached out to touch my hair. But back to the context of the legal profession. I have to make a decision once you make those statements, right? And my decision is going to be determined by a number of factors. For me, it may be, you know, do I really need this person as an attorney? Am I confident that I can find another attorney in whatever time period I have? So, I may submit myself to something that's very unhealthy for me. And it is important for attorneys to be aware of their own personal biases, so that they raise their own awareness and can create a truly authentic and effective working relationship with their clients.
How can you effectively advocate or work on behalf of a clients best interest if internally you really despise them? You have a level of bias that you're managing, but you know full well that maybe you were raised in a home that really demonized anyone who was not heterosexual, right? And so I show up with my full queer self and you want the work, right? So, you're going to manage your bias, but it's going to impact and it's going to influence how you show up for me and the relationship that we're able to build.
Blomster: So, if I'm the attorney, and I think I have my bias in check, you know, we live in a, you know, diverse culture, I have friends from all different sexual orientations and races. So, I feel like I have it all together. But even if I'm resisting that automatic response, it's so deep because it carries through your whole life. So, what can I do to recognize that and what can people do who you feel like you're on the right track, but you still are exhibiting these behaviors that are going to create that negative situation for your client or for others? So, what do you do?
Williams: Well, first you recognize that you're human, and that we all are and that this is a lifelong journey. There are no 1-2-3 steps and I'm bias free. We are going to navigate our biases as long as we are alive. Our brain has the ability to take in up to 11 million pieces of data in any given moment. And we are only consciously aware of 40 of them. So, when we consider the fact that as our brains are taking in that information that that information is not coming in through a vacuum, right? It's coming in with stereotypes, it's coming in with narratives. It's coming in with visual pictures, it's coming in with the opinions and the perspectives of other people. And when we consider who has the power to determine those narratives, who's writing the story who's disseminating the story, then we understand why the majority, if not almost all of the narratives and stereotypes related to people of color, and to those with marginalized identities are negative. Then we understand that this is something that's not going to go away easily. It just doesn't. So, what do we do? We have to have a personal commitment to growing and to changing and to raising our own awareness, and I can't force that on you.
My basic philosophy is that if I come to a place in a relationship, whether working or personal relationship where I realized that you stop being willing to grow and to learn and to receive information other than what you can generate yourself, then that's a clear barrier for me. And it's a clear boundary that I draw. It's also taking the time to do things like the Implicit Association test. It's not as though we have to remain in the dark, we don't have to remain ignorant of what our biases are.
I can give you an example of my committing a microaggression today, and I do this work and I was completely appalled. I committed the microaggressions yesterday actually, with a colleague that we've just started working together. And I was so excited, and I was so, so happy about being in this new working space. And I went in yesterday morning, and I was just like, 鈥淥h, wow, I鈥檓 so happy. I found my tribe.鈥 And my colleague is of indigenous heritage. She's a native woman and was immediately impacted. And me? I'm clueless, I was completely clueless. But no, it didn't stop there. To make matters even worse, fast forward about an hour or so later, and I'm in another dialogue with her and another colleague, and we're talking and she is expressing challenges around an engagement that she had with someone else who basically just blurted out something to her鈥攂ecause I don't want to share too many details鈥攁bout her being white passing, all right? And you could see and hear the pain and the frustration of that, because she is a native woman, and that was completely being ignored. And I started just thinking through the differences in geographical location, because I'm from Philadelphia. And looking at her. I said, 鈥淥h, wow, I could see that. And if you were on the East Coast, I could see that being the kind of response and that you might even be mistaken for being Italian.鈥 Just completely clueless.
I'm thinking about the functional aspects of the conversation. I'm not clueing in to the person that's engaged in the dialogue. And I'm not paying attention to the body language at all. So, I left work that day, completely clueless. And so fast forward and we鈥檙e, this morning, she and I are in dialogue, and she did this fantastic job. We had a conversation, we broke the ice. We were laughing and just getting to know one another. And then we have a little lull in the dialogue. And she brought it up. And she said, 鈥淗ey, you know, there's something I want to talk to you about. There were some statements that you made yesterday, and I was really uncomfortable with them.鈥 And we were able to unpack that.
Now I can tell you, right, this is the work that I've been doing for a number of years. Internally, I was all wrapped up, all tangled up because the immediate thing that happened and this is what I teach, it's like do not dive into trying to explain yourself. This is not the time, right? It's totally not the time because I created harm, whether consciously or unconsciously, she was impacted. It doesn't even matter whether or not I agree. And so but this comes back to the cost-benefit analysis. Is this a relationship that I value? Am I invested in this relationship? And if so, am I willing to become vulnerable? And to in many ways, put my ego, my pride on the line and say, 鈥淵es, I did that, and what can I do to make it better?鈥 And so even though internally, I had a very natural response to want to explain my intent, I didn't because it was not important. The impact to her was important, the courage that it took for her to come back to me and to bring up something that was hurtful and wounding, that's what I actually valued. And that's what I respected, and that's what I was able to connect to. And so microaggressions, we're going to commit those things. And I don't know how we're not going to commit them if we
are human, but if we can separate the behavior from the person, then we have a much better opportunity of maintaining authentic and healthy relationships, and of actually growing in our communication and conflict styles, rather than avoiding, right? Or denying.
Blomster: KJ Williams is founder of Radical, Insightful Solutions to create Equity, also known as RISE with KJ. You can learn more about her work, find videos and additional resources and learn about future workshops and events at risewithkj.com. Check out the show notes for links and more.
KJ, thank you so much for joining us.
Williams: Thank you for having me.
